Thursday, December 18, 2008

Berg: Injunction Dismissed, Case "Alive and Well"

Yesterday's update on the U.S. Supreme Court docket for Philip Berg's case against Barack Obama and the DNC caused confusion, due to the entry of what looks like an outright denial below the entry notating that the case has been distributed to conference.

Even the Atlanta Journal-Constitution was caught up in the confusion, writing yesterday afternoon that Justice Anthony Kennedy had in fact dismissed Berg's action. From the AJC:

Supreme Court Justice Anthony Kennedy has rejected two more efforts to get the court to consider whether President-elect Barack Obama is eligible to take office.

Kennedy on Wednesday denied without comment an appeal by Philip J. Berg, a Pennsylvania attorney, that claims Obama is either a citizen of Kenya or Indonesia and is ineligible to be president because he is not a "natural-born citizen" of the U.S. as required by the Constitution. Another appeal from California, based on Berg's claims, also was denied.


Upon seeing the docket yesterday after receiving news of the distribution for conference, my first instinct was that one of Berg's attempts to enjoin the presidential electors from voting had been denied by Justice Kennedy, and that his petition for certiorari went on as planned. I was right.

"Justice Kennedy dismissed our injunction yesterday," Berg told America's Right this afternoon. "Our case is alive and well."

Alive? Yes. Whether it could be considered "well" is to be determined, as the Supreme Court has already denied a pair of eligibility-related cases which reached full conference, like Berg's action will do on Friday, January 9, 2009.

There are, however, a few differences between those cases and the one filed by Philip Berg. First, the previous two actions made inroads at the Supreme Court through an application for an emergency stay, and the hope that the actions would be heard turned first on the Court's consideration of the stay as a petition for writ of certiorari, then the agreement by four Justices to hear the case on its merits. This was how Bush v. Gore reached the Supreme Court in 2000. Berg's case, however, was filed in the more typical way, and while application after injunction after application has been denied, it is a petition for writ of certiorari which will be discussed on January 9. Second, the two previous cases turned on the definition of the Natural Born Citizen Clause in the U.S. Constitution, while Berg's action is more rooted in speculation that Obama was born abroad or, if he was born in the States, he lost his citizenship during childhood. Furthermore, both of the previous cases were denied prior to the electors having cast their votes; while Berg's case will be discussed at conference before Obama takes office, the electors have already rendered him the official president-elect. Whether any of these differences makes a difference is yet to be determined and, as I have written before, highly unlikely.

A little bit more than a week ago, I included some likely scenarios for the future of Berg's action, the first such case challenging Obama's constitutional eligibility to be president. Just for clarification, I want to reiterate those possibilities here, with applicable changes having been made now that the electors have cast their votes:
  • (1) Berg’s certiorari petition could be denied, without comment or dissent (a dissent by one or more Justices to a denial of a certiorari petition, while rare, is not unprecedented). This would end Berg’s case, but likely not jurisdictionally end the others;
  • (2) Berg’s certiorari petition could be granted and the matter set for oral argument following the filing of additional briefs, with the Court directing (a) that the issues be confined to arguments on Berg’s standing, or (b) that the issues of standing and, assuming standing, the merits of the case be addressed;
  • (3) If option 2(a) occurs, at some future date, the Court could determine that Berg had standing in USDC and could vacate that decision--and naturally the Third Circuit decision as well--and remand to the U.S. District Court here in Philadelphia with instructions to proceed with “further proceedings consistent with this opinion.” At that point, as extremely unlikely as it is, who knows what would happen?
  • (4) If option 2(b) occurs, the Court could actually reach the merits of Berg's case and, sometime well after Jan. 20, 2009, render a decision. Considering the nature of the Court, the most likely result under this scenario would likely be a 6-3 or, at best, a 5-4 decision against Berg holding that, because Berg failed to prove his case at the district court level, he loses. This would make the matter res judicata, at least with regard to Philip Berg and Barack Obama, and would for all practical purposes severely undermine if not foreclose all other pending and future challenges to Obama’s eligibility under the Natural Born Citizen clause. While I'm not certain that it would necessarily work, I would expect Obama's team of attorneys to argue that the stampede of other suits would be foreclosed under collateral estoppel theory.
  • (5) While unlikely but certainly not unprecedented, the Court could simply wait until after Jan. 20, 2009 to do anything and then, after the inauguration, simply dismiss whatever action was then pending on the grounds of it being a "political question" and separation of powers, or on the grounds of mootness. The issue, of course, implicates neither of these excuses, but the Court could say so -- and, at that point, what other court would intercede?

57 comments:

Anonymous,  December 18, 2008 3:17 PM  

Makes me sick how our govenrment officials including the supreme court completely ignore what the constitution says and claims not one american has standing to challenge Barack Obama. Any American citizen should have standing. What about Alan Keyes? He has standing but i haven't heard anything about his case. It truely ticks me off that a non citizen can be president of this country. He can't even legitmately pass a security clearance. How can he be president. If any one of us had ties to men like Ayers and Rezko we would be put in jail. What a travesty for the Constitution. but let's face a few facts here, this country has been in a constitutional crisis for years. When our government passes laws to violate our constitutional rights, we have problems.

Anonymous,  December 18, 2008 3:37 PM  

For those not yet exhaused from defending the Constitution from the onslaughts of the presidential campaign, there’s this:

http://worldnetdaily.com/index.php?fa=PAGE.view&pageId=83837

Anyone heard of it?

K,  December 18, 2008 3:54 PM  

Jeff,
Maybe on a slow news day in the future, you could give us a legalese crash course! :-)

I am certain you are doing a fine job of distilling it simply -- I take full responsibility of being ignorant or the terminology. Maybe my Santa list should include "Law for Dummies!" :-)

I did read on another blog that confirmed Rep Linder from here in GA intends to challenge the citizenship issue. Thank God we still have a few good men in the ranks. Be in prayer for them.

RatTrader December 18, 2008 4:31 PM  

Evidently the story about Obama's phone number being from the the Party for Socialism and Liberation was just bad programming. The information was most likely taken from the website below. The name above Obama's has the phone number.

http://elections.utah.gov/2008candidates.htm

Anonymous,  December 18, 2008 4:59 PM  

Jeff,
You know on American Idol where the first couple of shows showcase the talentless who are nevertheless convinced they can sing, and despite all the evidence and the judges protestations that they cannot indeed sing? I often wonder where their loved ones are and why they didn't intervene to keep them from making a fool of themselves in front of everyone in the country.

Well Jeff, I'm that friend, and I'm here to tell you - YOU CANT SING.

You have no evidence other than wild speculation that Obama is anything less than a natural born citizen. Berg's case is meritless and will be treated as such. Stop this now, you are embarassing yourself. If you ever want to be taken seriously again - just stop.

Anonymous,  December 18, 2008 5:18 PM  

Dear Anon @ 4:59

I believe the correct analogy would be that OBAMA is 'trying to sing' and cannot because he does not have the goods (ie the birth certificate). HE is the guy who wants the job, so the burden of proof is on HIM to prove his eligibility. Jeff is simply observing and describing the situation as it unfolds, and quite articulately at that.

What have you contributed to the discussion? Not much--go read up on the background of this issue before you comment.

Paula Abdul

Anonymous,  December 18, 2008 5:19 PM  

The Supreme Court just buried America, our Constitution, our way of life. The America that my father fought for is no more. Mr. Obama has spent over 1,000,000.00 NOT to show his original birth certificate which reveals the place of birth, only the Certification of Birth that anyone can get in Hawaii and not be born in Hawaii or the US, and the judges in our country say the Certification of Birth is perfectly okay. Welcome to the Obama dictatorship. America has lost everything and opened the front door to a wolf in sheep's clothing --- freedom was paid for dearly by many Americans---and our Supreme Court Judges have turned a BLIND EYE to protecting America letting down all of these Americans that gave so much so that we could have a great country. I've lost all respect for the law of this land and those people at the head of it.

Anonymous,  December 18, 2008 5:25 PM  

To Anon @ 4:59

...and, ummm, what is YOUR evidence? And, uh, why does BO have a team of lawyers to defend "baseless" charges?

Here is an excellent letter to Chief Justice Roberts.

http://texasdarlin.wordpress.com/2008/12/18/do-not-leave-americans-with-silence/

I would hope that "language clarification" is not a huge imposition. We are not even asking to know what "is" is?!? We're asking for Constitution clarification, period!

Anonymous,  December 18, 2008 5:39 PM  

Interesting how the attacks now come under the guise of being "your friend".

Koyaan December 18, 2008 6:26 PM  

Anonymous wrote:

You have no evidence other than wild speculation that Obama is anything less than a natural born citizen. Berg's case is meritless and will be treated as such. Stop this now, you are embarassing yourself. If you ever want to be taken seriously again - just stop.

And I'm here to tell you - YOU'RE AN IDIOT.

Jeff isn't offering any evidence. All he has ever done is to simply report on Berg's case (which began as something of a lark as he happened to be in the court the day it was filed) and to offer his opinions as to what possible turns things might take in the courts along the way.

I think Berg's a complete buffoon who should be thankful his joke of a case is never likely to be heard before a court of law.

However I've been reading Jeff's posts on this from the start and I'll be the first to tell anyone that he's not just some clown parroting Berg's latest breathless press release like most every other blog out there as you seem to be implying by your post.

His posts have always been fair, accurate, informative, and perhaps most of all, educational.

k

Richard December 18, 2008 7:37 PM  

Wow, that last entry was laughable. Mr. Anonymous says Jeff can't sing. Ha. This man (Jeff) has more feathers in his cap than this jerk can count on his unwashed fingers. The fact that a man that will swear on a Bible (hopefully) to protect the Constitution, is unwilling to prove to a segment of the citizenry that is unconvinced of his Constitutional eligibility is beyond dishonorable. Since it has been proven that a COLB was available to non-citizens in 1960's Hawaii, the burden of "proof" that low IQ-Anonymous demands, has fallen upon Obama. If for no other reason, out of respect and honor, to satisfy that portion of the electorate that asks for it our President elect should have the courtesy of simply showing his Birth Certificate to start the unification and healing process that he promised.

Anonymous,  December 18, 2008 8:58 PM  

Response to - Well Jeff, I'm that friend, and I'm here to tell you - YOU CANT SING.

Maybe Jeff can't do Hip Hop or Rap, but he seems to be carrying the tune quite well!

Keep up the great work Jeff!

MUJERLATINA,  December 18, 2008 9:26 PM  

Jeff, you are MELODIOUS in your articulation of the issues at hand!! It's a shame that Obama can't just present the documents that might just put this citizenship issue to rest -- but in the meantime, it is your duty as a patriot to continue reporting on these cases. As for the 'Idol' paradigm: the previous anonymous writer likely is one of the tens of thousands waiting in line out in the cold, awaiting that audition...You not only made it to the head of the line, auditioned, got the gig, but continue to be a melodious muse for us who want to know about the political process of our Democracy. Keep on humming my friend :)

Anonytoo,  December 18, 2008 9:42 PM  

You have no evidence other than wild speculation that Obama is anything less than a natural born citizen.

Except for the admission by the Obama sites themselves confessing to the dual citizenship at birth. Now, that may not satisfy your own particular idea of what the framers meant, but that appears to be what some of them actually spelled out. The difference is, admittedly, that today's judges/justices make new law from the bench which has nothing to do with the founding fathers. It's convenient, for the moment, but dangerous for the future. But then, as in the Roe decision, "what could it hurt"!!!!

Anonymous,  December 18, 2008 9:54 PM  

No body knows whether Obama is a natural born citizen of USA or not even a citizen of this country because in stead of clearing this once for all by showing the vault copy of his birth certificate, he engages 3 law firms to fight in the courts. Please tell me what is the problem in showing the proof that he is a natural born citizen.

Phil,  December 18, 2008 9:59 PM  

How touching, a friend named "Anonymous"; brings me to tears.

gailbullock December 18, 2008 10:16 PM  

Anonymous, who posted at 4:59 p.m., we who have an ear for classical music appreciate it; and when it is delivered with a voice that rich and pure, it's a rare gift. Sorry, but you seem to be tone deaf. Go back to your scratchy liberalism where you can enjoy noise.

Jeff, how did you do on that last exam? You did get some sleep, because you're as great as ever!

Tim,  December 18, 2008 10:34 PM  

Most of my friends use their name when they talk to me. Why is the post at 4:59 "anonymous"?

Anonymous,  December 18, 2008 10:45 PM  

All I have to say is that it's clear you have to "pay to play".

Frankly, I thought Orly Taitz's case (Alan Keyes) had the best chance. From what I understand that was denied by SCOTUS as well? Paragraphs #27 & 48 in her Supreme Court of California pleading were like "keystone cops" regarding the elections process there.

Bobby K.,  December 18, 2008 10:51 PM  

for the above talking about jeff not being able to sing. you know this about obama because you have the long form birth cert. in your hands and are reading from it, or is it because they (meaning some truthful politican) told you it was true. why don't people use there names or atleast make up a name..

Anonymous,  December 18, 2008 11:06 PM  

I think all the people who post here are alot like me. I like to read all this stuff because I'm very interested in the subject matter, but uncomfortable with making a comment. Everything I want to say has already been covered a 1000 times. But from the uncomenters we watch and read and we're out there waiting. Good luck and keep up the good work I somehow feel It's going to pay off.

Anonymous,  December 18, 2008 11:18 PM  

Have the nuts to say who you are if you are going to put J. in a position.

Jeff, I have watched your site grow, and you are doing a fantastic job speaking the mind of individuals "on the lookout". Keep up your work, keep up your spirit, and keep up your family. You have done well, and earned my respect. I wish you peace in the fact of your situations, and you have done a wonderful job of not letting insulting mouths ruin your beliefs. If they had the nuts to take the time like you have, perhaps they would make as much of a difference as you have in (both mine and my wife's) life. Good job man.

let us move forward,  December 18, 2008 11:36 PM  

Jeff,
How did your exams go? I feel selfish posting and taking some your precious time while you could have been studying.

I want to post this again with modifications as I believe this is an important element of the citizenship question.

>Koyaan wrote:

>Chapter 3--Loss of Nationality

>LOSS OF NATIONALITY BY NATIVE-BORN OR NATURALIZED CITIZEN

>Sec. 349. (a) From and after the effective date of this Act a person who is a national of the United States whether by birth of naturalization, shall lose his nationality by--

>(1) obtaining naturalization in a foreign state upon his own application, upon the application filed in his behalf by a parent, guardian, or duly authorized agent, or through the naturalization of a parent having legal custody of such person : Provided, That nationality shall not be lost by any person under this section as the result of the naturalization of a parent or parents while such person is under the age of twenty-one years, or as the result of a naturalization obtained on behalf of a person under twenty-one years of age by a parent, guardian, or duly authorized agent, unless such person shall fail to enter the United States to establish a permanent residence prior to his twenty-fifth birthday

>In other words, a minor child cannot lose their US citizenship, even if they have been naturalized as a citizen of another country, unless they fail to return to the US and establish a permanent residence prior to their twenty-fifth birthday.

>Which Obama clearly did.


Is this quote from a law or from a State Department handbook? If from a law, when was the law in effect? In 1981 in the US, an eighteen year old had the right to vote and drink and just about everything else. Now eighteen is essentially the age of majority.

This passage does not say that the restored citizenship would return to the original status, e.g. native born. It also implies that Mr. O could have used an Indonesian passport obtained for him by his mother (whom he visited in Indonesia) to travel to Pakistan at 20 and not lose his right to US citizenship. What if he claimed foreign student status when he attended Columbia and Occidental?

The quoted passage states that he would not lose his right to US citizenship. Is there a law that says that he had to do nothing other than establish residence in the US to completely regain his native born United States citizenship status?

It is alleged that Mr. O held 3 citizenships at majority. Does that mean that he had to do nothing at majority to become a full US citizen? There is a formal procedure at majority for a person with dual (triple) citizenship to chose one citizenship. An Oath of Affirmation is sworn in front of a judge choosing United States citizenship and renouncing all other citizenships. Would that requirement have been met if Mr. O obtained a US passport? Today, you have to affirm sole allegiance to the United States in front of a Postal Worker to obtain a passport. (In 1981, I obtained a US passport by mail and I don't recall having to verbally swear sole allegiance to the US in front of anyone. I do remember sending a certified copy of my original birth certificate and special signed photos with the application.)

Has Mr. O formally renounced all claims to foreign citizenship? Have all foreign countries to which he "owed allgeniance" formally acknowledged that he is solely a United States citizen?

And, according to Mr. O's claims, he never did have "natural born" status as the framers of the Constitution understood it.

PS I believe that Mr. O and Stanley Ann carried two passports when in Indonesia, one United States and the other Indonesian. Dual citizenship was not allowed for adults in either country at that time. They could have used the Indonesian passport in Indonesia (and to exit Indonesia without having a visa) and the US passport to reenter the States in 1971. The State Department may have never known about the Indonesian passports. Or the Indonesian passports could have been forgeries.

Anonymous,  December 18, 2008 11:38 PM  

Just as long as Rezco, Blago and Harris can sing, I don't care if Jeff can even carry a tune.

let us move forward,  December 18, 2008 11:41 PM  

K said

>I did read on another blog that confirmed Rep Linder from here in GA intends to challenge the citizenship issue. Thank God we still have a few good men in the ranks. Be in prayer for them.


Did he say challenge or did he say be sure that he is eligible. If the latter, did he state what criteria he would use to make that judgment? You have to really watch the wording from a politician.

I received an email from my Senator saying that he appreciated my input followed by a review of the problems that the country is facing and that he would work with President Obama on my behalf.

Koyaan December 19, 2008 1:14 AM  

let us move forward wrote:

Is this quote from a law or from a State Department handbook?

Law.

If from a law, when was the law in effect?

From 1952 until I believe 1986.

This passage does not say that the restored citizenship would return to the original status, e.g. native born.

There was no "restored citizenship." The citizenship was never lost to require being restored.

It also implies that Mr. O could have used an Indonesian passport obtained for him by his mother (whom he visited in Indonesia) to travel to Pakistan at 20 and not lose his right to US citizenship.

Let me know when you can show me that he used an Indonesian passport to travel to Pakistan.

What if he claimed foreign student status when he attended Columbia and Occidental?

Let me know when you can show me that he claimed to be a foreign student when he attended Columbia and Occidental.

The quoted passage states that he would not lose his right to US citizenship. Is there a law that says that he had to do nothing other than establish residence in the US to completely regain his native born United States citizenship status?

The law made no modification to citizenship. There was nothing to regain, whether in whole or in part.

He was a citizen by birth when he was born, and he was a citizen by birth when he returned from Indonesia and established permanent residence in the US.

It is alleged that Mr. O held 3 citizenships at majority. Does that mean that he had to do nothing at majority to become a full US citizen?

He was always a full US citizen. And yes, he didn't have to do anything to keep it that way.

There is a formal procedure at majority for a person with dual (triple) citizenship to chose one citizenship. An Oath of Affirmation is sworn in front of a judge choosing United States citizenship and renouncing all other citizenships.

He didn't have to do anything according to INA 1952.

Has Mr. O formally renounced all claims to foreign citizenship? Have all foreign countries to which he "owed allgeniance" formally acknowledged that he is solely a United States citizen?

He never had to renounce anything as per US law.

And, according to Mr. O's claims, he never did have "natural born" status as the framers of the Constitution understood it.

Doesn't matter.

The framers gave Congress the power to define who is to be considered a citizen in all respects under Article I, Section 8, Clause 4.

PS I believe that Mr. O and Stanley Ann carried two passports when in Indonesia, one United States and the other Indonesian.

You're free to believe whatever you wish.

k

Koyaan December 19, 2008 1:23 AM  

Richard wrote:

Since it has been proven that a COLB was available to non-citizens in 1960's Hawaii, the burden of "proof" that low IQ-Anonymous demands, has fallen upon Obama.

No, it has not been proven that a COLB was available to non-citizens in 1960s Hawaii. That's just another myth created by a bunch of low IQ bloggers.

k

Koyaan December 19, 2008 1:28 AM  

Anonymous wrote:

...and, ummm, what is YOUR evidence? And, uh, why does BO have a team of lawyers to defend "baseless" charges?

Um, Obama's lawyers haven't had to defend any charges. None of the charges have made it into a court of law.

All Obama's lawyers have done is point out that those filing the lawsuits against him haven't had standing to bring the charges in the first place.

k

Puddleglum December 19, 2008 1:40 AM  

let us move forward --
I do not know the exact wording but it is a moot point. Linder has evidently denied the rumor on a talk show in AZ hosted by JD Hayworth? Not sure if he changed positions or what.

Disappointing but not surprising.

K

tanarg December 19, 2008 1:52 AM  

Jeff,

You wrote, "...holding that, because Berg failed to prove his case at the district court level, he loses."

But he never presented the merits of the case, did he?

tanarg December 19, 2008 1:58 AM  

Look, anonymous, all we have ever wanted is for a court -- any court -- to uphold the law. The Constitution is the law in question. But no court will do so, at least so far.

Our evidence is the Constitution itself, which requires that the president be a natural born citizen.

We have a right to know whether a person is or is not a natural born citizen, no?

Puddleglum December 19, 2008 2:09 AM  

Koyaan,
You said:
"He was a citizen by birth when he was born, and he was a citizen by birth"

Yes he was definitely a "citizen" but of where? When you say citizen, do you mean a "natural born citizen of the US?" I think that is the question.

The framers gave Congress the power to define who is to be considered a citizen in all respects under Article I, Section 8, Clause 4.

The Constitution says,
'To establish an uniform Rule of Naturalization...'

I'm just learning so bear with me, but isn't this talking about the rule or process of who can become a naturalized citizen? This is different than defining who is a "natural born citizen" as I understand it. If I am mistaken, could you point me to a primary source that backs up what you are saying b/c I would really like to understand this better.

Let us move forward December 19, 2008 11:19 AM  

Koyaan said:

>>It also implies that Mr. O could have used an Indonesian passport obtained for him by his mother (whom he visited in Indonesia) to travel to Pakistan at 20 and not lose his right to US citizenship.

>LET ME KNOW WHEN YOU CAN SHOW ME THAT he used an Indonesian passport to travel to Pakistan.

>>What if he claimed foreign student status when he attended Columbia and Occidental?

>LET ME KNOW WHEN YOU CAN SHOW ME THAT he claimed to be a foreign student when he attended Columbia and Occidental.


That is the point, isn't it Koyaan.

Mr. O has refused access to all records that may show that he presented himself as a foreign citizen. And without these records, only he and the people holding the records know for sure. And the people holding the records are bound in some way to not disclose, like by privacy laws.


>There is a formal procedure at majority for a person with dual (triple) citizenship to chose one citizenship. An Oath of Affirmation is sworn in front of a judge choosing United States citizenship and renouncing all other citizenships.

>He didn't have to do anything according to INA 1952.


Is it from this passage that you believe that he didn't have to do anything? Or is does this passage cover it?


>And, according to Mr. O's claims, he never did have "natural born" status as the framers of the Constitution understood it.

>Doesn't matter.

>The framers gave Congress the power to define who is to be considered a citizen in all respects under Article I, Section 8, Clause 4.


Article I, Section 8, Clause 4
To establish a uniform Rule of Naturalization, and uniform Laws on the subject of Bankruptcies throughout the United States;

The question is not about citizenship, but "natural born citizenship". The specification of "natural born citizen" for eligibility to be President written into the Constitution would surely supersede this clause. To remove the requirement of "natural born citizenship" for a President would require an amendment to the Constitution.

And now we know that Mr. O, unlike any other elected President, does not meet that requirement in the view of the Framers, and the Supreme Court is apparently not going to weigh in on the issue.

My concern is: What other laws is Mr. O capable of ignoring, if Mr. O is willing to assume the Office of President knowing that he is not Constitutionally eligible and (like Roger Calero and even John McCain) should not have run? This concern has been increased by references such as the "LITTLE people" and the "lack of PARENTAL oversight" of financial managers.

Scrapbooker December 19, 2008 11:24 AM  

Read Orly Taitz's pleading:

http://goexcelglobal.com/share/c146.pdf

In particular, start reading from paragraph 27 on down. You'll find the intent of "natural born citizen" as indicated by one of the framers of the 14th amendment. It is one who is born under US jurisdiction who has no foreign allegiances.

Koyaan December 19, 2008 12:21 PM  

Puddleglum wrote:

Yes he was definitely a "citizen" but of where? When you say citizen, do you mean a "natural born citizen of the US?" I think that is the question.

I haven't seen any credible evidence that he was born anyplace other than Hawaii, so that would make his citizenship American.

The Constitution says,
'To establish an uniform Rule of Naturalization...'

I'm just learning so bear with me, but isn't this talking about the rule or process of who can become a naturalized citizen? This is different than defining who is a "natural born citizen" as I understand it. If I am mistaken, could you point me to a primary source that backs up what you are saying b/c I would really like to understand this better.


Well, if you check out the 1790 Act, which was passed by the first Congress and signed into law by our first President, it says "And the children of citizens of the United States, that may be born beyond sea, or out of the limits of the United States, shall be considered as natural born citizens."

So clearly they felt that they had the power to define who was a citizen, other than those who were naturalized.

k

Koyaan December 19, 2008 3:26 PM  

Let us move forward wrote:

Mr. O has refused access to all records that may show that he presented himself as a foreign citizen. And without these records, only he and the people holding the records know for sure. And the people holding the records are bound in some way to not disclose, like by privacy laws.

What does it ultimately matter other than as a purely political issue?

Is it from this passage that you believe that he didn't have to do anything? Or is does this passage cover it?

With regard to any Indonesian citizenship he had, Section 349 of INA 1952 addressed that.

With regard to British citizenship, Section 350 of INA 1952 addressed that.


The question is not about citizenship, but "natural born citizenship". The specification of "natural born citizen" for eligibility to be President written into the Constitution would surely supersede this clause. To remove the requirement of "natural born citizenship" for a President would require an amendment to the Constitution.


You miss the point.

It's not that the qualification is removed. It's that Congress may define who is a "natural born citizen."

My concern is: What other laws is Mr. O capable of ignoring, if Mr. O is willing to assume the Office of President knowing that he is not Constitutionally eligible and (like Roger Calero and even John McCain) should not have run?

You presuppose here that he is not constitutionally eligible. I have not seen that to be the case.

k

kris December 19, 2008 5:13 PM  

Re: 1790 Act - Um, k, you left out some additional info - perhaps to your convenience?:

In 1795, the Congress passed the Naturalization Act of 1795 which removed the words "natural born" from the Naturalization Act of 1790, to state that such children born to citizens beyond the seas "shall be considered as citizens of the United States."[6] George Washington was also President in 1795, and thus he was aware of this change, and yet did not veto it.

Koyaan December 19, 2008 9:19 PM  

kris wrote:

Re: 1790 Act - Um, k, you left out some additional info - perhaps to your convenience?:

In 1795, the Congress passed the Naturalization Act of 1795 which removed the words "natural born" from the Naturalization Act of 1790, to state that such children born to citizens beyond the seas "shall be considered as citizens of the United States."[6] George Washington was also President in 1795, and thus he was aware of this change, and yet did not veto it.


Yes, I'm aware of that.

However I haven't seen any evidence that the change was anything more than a change of vernacular, getting away from the more ambiguous "natural born citizen."

If you've any evidence to support that it was anything more than this, I'd be happy to take a look at it.

In the meantime however, it seems rather strange to me that if you were born outside the US between 1790 and 1795 to parents who were US citizens, you could hold the office of president, yet suddenly, and forever after, those born under the very same circumstances could not.

k

kris December 19, 2008 10:10 PM  

Well, suppose then you'll just have to make another change so things now fit the way you would like them to rather than the correction made!

btw December 19, 2008 11:58 PM  

NO NEED TO GET OBAMA’S BC
TO PROVE
HIS INELEGIBILITY TO BE POTUS
ACCORDING CONSTITUTION

Please see my comment here:
http://www.democratic-disaster.com/index.php?topic=1999.msg8151#msg8151

Also a good comment by NBC with the same idea:
http://jbjd.wordpress.com/2008/11/30/find-out-whether-barack-obama-is-a-natural-born-citizen-as-required-under-article-ii-of-the-us-constitution-and-stop-the-electoral-college-from-voting-for-him-if-he-is-not/#comment-151

Let us move forward December 20, 2008 12:16 AM  

Koyaan said

>>Mr. O has refused access to all records that may show that he presented himself as a foreign citizen. And without these records, only he and the people holding the records know for sure. And the people holding the records are bound in some way to not disclose, like by privacy laws.

>What does it ultimately matter other than as a purely political issue?

If Mr. O presented himself as a foreign citizen and/or with a foreign passport beyond the age of majority (we will give you age 21), that would be equivalent to owing allegiance to a foreign power that would not be covered by INA 1952. He would require naturalization to regain his US citizenship and could not claim "natural born" status.

If Mr. O presented himself as a foreign student to gain some advantage in school, and he didn't consider himself owing allegiance to the foreign power, I would consider that at least fraud.



>In 1795, the Congress passed the Naturalization Act of 1795 which removed the words "natural born" from the Naturalization Act of 1790, to state that such children born to citizens beyond the seas "shall be considered as citizens of the United States."[6] George Washington was also President in 1795, and thus he was aware of this change, and yet did not veto it.

I read somewhere that "natural born" was added to the 1790 act for a political reason. The 1795 omission of "natural born" is in line with the contemporaneous main stream definition of "natural born".

At that time, one was considered a "natural born citizen" if born in the country and both parents were citizens of the country (see E. de Vattel, The Law of Nations). All previously elected Presidents had "natural born citizenship" by The Law of Nations definition. Mr. O will be the first elected President that may not meet this definition.

Unfortunately, the Supreme Court has chosen not to clarify the current meaning as it applies to Mr. O, but has commented on the matter in other cases towards the traditional definition. Also unfortunately, individuals are forming their own opinion as to what a "natural born citizen" is in Mr. O's case. (Arnold is watching with great interest.)


I suspect that Mr. O's parents were not married when he was born (no record of a marriage license or marriage ceremony has been found), but there is a divorce record so perhaps they met the requirements for common law marriage at some time. Mr. O would then have held only US citizenship at birth. Mr. O('s staff) picked up the British/Kenyan quote from FactCheck and put it on fightthesmears. He likes the idea that his father was Kenyan and I suppose that he likes the idea of having held Kenyan citizenship whether he actually did or not. Mr. O may have been adopted by Mr. O Sr. either soon after birth or at ten years old. Mr. O was adopted by the Indonesian Lolo Soetoro. I personally cannot see how he could have avoided having a real or fake Indonesian passport in 1970 (alternative would have been 4-5 years of visas), and he probably also held a US passport (this was illegal in both Indonesia and the US).

Mr. O was not what we would consider a typical American young man and may have experimented with his citizenships as many young people experiment with alcohol and other "wild" behaviors. Previous Presidents did not have an opportunity to experiment with citizenship. Such experimentation would not look good for an individual seeking the Presidency and may have resulted in the loss his natural born status.

Although his situation has been more complicated than any other candidate that I can remember, Mr. O has not been forthcoming with information that would put all matters to rest, although other candidates readily provided requested information/documents. He has demanded volumes of information for people desiring a position in his administration and has given the public as little information as possible about his citizenship history. I hardly consider this approach "transparent" but would call it "you can see only what I want you to see". People are uneasy in an information vacuum and try to connect the dots as best they can.

Let me restate my concern in subjunctive. Mr. O has not (common sense) proven beyond a reasonable doubt that he is Constitutionally eligible to be President. What other laws would Mr. O be capable of ignoring, if Mr. O would be willing to assume the Office of President with the knowledge that he is not Constitutionally eligible? Mr. O really should lay it all out so that everyone knows what is really happening when he is allowed to assume the office of President. If he is hiding something, it may come out later (citizenshipgate?) and the revelation probably would not be good for the country.

Let us move forward December 20, 2008 9:48 AM  

Koyaan

Please write and post a short summary of why you think Mr. O is Constitutionally eligible to be President.

Koyaan December 20, 2008 1:34 PM  

btw wrote:

With all due respect the author is not right.

1. If Obama was born abroad.
In this case he performed a crime (because he has stated that he was born in the US) and he must be a subject for Department of Justice with all consequences following from this fact. Of course he can’t be President of the US in such a case.


There's not a shred of credible evidence that Obama was born anyplace other than Hawaii.

2. If Obama was born in Hawaii as he alleges.
The author writes: “If Obama was born in the US, he was a citizen at birth, regardless of either parent’s citizenship status, per paragraph (a).”
referring to
“US Code 1401 states that “The following shall be nationals and citizens of the United States at birth”:
“(a) a person born in the United States, and subject to the jurisdiction thereof.”… ”
That author’s inference is absolutely wrong.

Let’s consider the following SOLE consequence from Constitution of the US:
“United States Constitution
Amendment XIV
Section 1. All persons born or naturalized in the United States, and
subject to the jurisdiction thereof, are citizens of the United States…”

http://www.14thamendment.us/birthright_citizenship/original_intent.html
Yes, Congress subsequently passed a special act…
“The Citizens Act of 1924, codified in
8USCSß1401, provides that:
The following shall be nationals and citizens of the United States
at birth:
(a) a person born in the United States and subject to the jurisdiction thereof;”

According “The Oath of Allegiance for Naturalized Citizens” such citizens must renounce and abjure any foreign jurisdiction and be subject of only US jurisdiction.


That's the oath for naturalized citizens. Naturalized citizens were never US citizens by birth.

The same (be subject of only US jurisdiction) goes automatically to babies born in the US from 2 (two) US citizens; so they are US citizens at birth (natural born citizens).

I'm sorry, but the 14th Amendment does not say subject of only US jurisdiction.

Quoting from the 14th Amendment website you cite:

Every person born within the limits of the United States, and subject to their jurisdiction, is by virtue of natural law and national law a citizen of the United States. This will not, of course, include persons born in the United States who are foreigners, aliens, who belong to the families of ambassadors or foreign ministers accredited to the Government of the United States, but will include every other class of persons.

Obama was neither a foreigner, nor an alien, nor belonged to families of ambassadors or foreign ministers accredited to the government of the United States.

He belonged to that "every other class of persons."

A United States citizen, giving birth to a child in the United States, DOES NOT give birth to a foreigner or an alien.

They give birth to a person who is a United States citizen by birth.

Persons born in the US from a foreigner and a US citizen are subject of 2 (two) jurisdictions and by definition (above) can’t be US citizens immediately after birth (they are only residents of the US). Of course, later they can become US citizens through the process of naturalization (by renouncing and abjuring any foreign jurisdiction). BUT AFTER THAT THEY OBVIOUSLY CAN’T HAVE A STATUS “NATURAL BORN CITIZEN”.

That's incorrect. There is no process of naturalization. They are US citizens by birth.

k

Koyaan December 20, 2008 1:36 PM  

kris wrote:

Well, suppose then you'll just have to make another change so things now fit the way you would like them to rather than the correction made!

Show me that there was any "correction" other than a change of vernacular.

k

Koyaan December 20, 2008 1:38 PM  

Let us move forward wrote:

Please write and post a short summary of why you think Mr. O is Constitutionally eligible to be President.

Sure.

1. He's at least thirty five years of age.

2. He has been a resident of the United States for at least fourteen years.

3. There's not a shred of credible evidence that he was born anyplace other than Hawaii.

k

btw December 20, 2008 11:30 PM  

This is a comment on the comment by Koyaan
http://www.americasright.com/2008/12/berg-injunction-dismissed-case-alive.html?showComment=1229798040000#c8866527945742352970
(on my post http://www.americasright.com/2008/12/berg-injunction-dismissed-case-alive.html?showComment=1229749080000#c3186385162770837358
of December 19, 2008 11:58 PM).

1. I confirm all inferences in my initial comment.

2. I appreciate that Koyaan read my comment but he read it wrong.

2.1. I considered a case if Obama was born abroad only because
this case was considered in the article that I commented. I only
noticed that if he was born abroad (there are such allegations), he
can't be POTUS because he would be a subject of charges by Department of Justice for giving not correct data about his birth place. I'm not interested to discuss this case any more. I'm interested only in a matter of his eligibility to be POTUS.

2.2. If Obama was born in Hawaii (as he alleges), he isn't elegible to be POTUS because he was born from a foreigner and a US citizen and as a result of that doesn't have a status "natural born citizen (NBC)" according Constitution. I showed it by straightforward reading
Constitution in my comment and I repeat it in short again.

Yes, in Amendment XIV there isn't the word "only" (in the phrase
"and subject to the jurisdiction thereof") in the text:
“United States Constitution
Amendment XIV
Section 1. All persons born or naturalized in the United States, and subject to the jurisdiction thereof, are citizens of the United States…”
So there are two groups of US citizens: NBC and naturalized
citizens. But one needs to consider the combination of Amendment XIV and The Oath of Allegiance in order to make the right conclusion about
obligatory requierements to be a US citizen. Persons wishing to be
naturalized US citizens have to give The Oath of Allegiance to the US, renounce and abjure any foreign jurisdiction and be subject of ONLY the US jurisdiction. These words - renounce and abjure any foreign jurisdiction - are THE KEY. It means that ONLY one jurisdiction is allowed for naturalized citizens - ONLY the US jurisdiction (it was a
clear intention of framers - not to have any foreign influence on US citizens).

But citizens of both groups - NBC and naturalized citizens - have the same rights and responsibilities except only one: NBC can be President of the US (if also 2 other conditions are in place - the age and the
residency period; but these conditions are not of interest for this consideration). So natural born citizens (exactly as naturalized citizens) must be subject ONLY one jurisdiction - the US jurisdiction. This requirement is automatically performed for persons born from 2 US citizens - so there is no need to give The Oath of Allegiance; if such babies also born in the US, they become not just US citizens - they are NBC.

A person born in the US from a foreigner and a US citizen (this is an Obama situation if according his statements he is born in Hawaii) is at birth a subject of 2 jurisdictions. In order to become a US citizen such a person has only one way - to renounce and abjure any foreign jurisdiction in order to become a subject ONLY the US jurisdiction. It can be done ONLY through the process of NATURALIZATION (if such a person doen't go through NATURALIZATION, this person isn't a US citizen).
But after NATURALIZATION such a person CANNOT have a status of NBC. This inference we get with the iron necessity just by straightforward reading Constitution.

There is only one imaginary way to argue with the inference above - to state that The Oath of Allegiance is unconstitutional. Is there somebody who is ready to make such a statement?! I believe - NOBODY.

Oh, maybe there is another way - to state that NBC and naturalized
citizens are not equal (let's put aside for a moment an eligibility to be POTUS)??? I believe NOBODY will state this either because - read Consitution, Amendment XIV, Section 1 "...No state shall make or enforce any law which shall abridge the privileges or immunities of citizens of the United States; nor shall any state deprive any person of life, liberty, or property, without due process of law; nor deny to
any person within its jurisdiction the equal protection of the laws..."

Let us move forward December 21, 2008 12:55 AM  

Koyaan,

Thank you for your reply. Please note that the Constitution says "natural born citizen" although you imply "native born" citizen:

>There's not a shred of credible evidence that he was born anyplace other than Hawaii.


There are three distinct types of US citizenship:

1 Naturalized - take an oath
2 Native Born - born on US soil
3 Natural Born - born on US soil to two US citizen parents (or possibly to one unwed US citizen mother?)

On fightthesmears, the statement that Mr. O is "native born" appears. Please allow that "native born" and "natural born" are each a distinct and unique citizenship status. Has Mr. O ever stated verbally or written anywhere at anytime "I am a "natural born" citizen of the United States of America."?

"Natural born" is specified in the US Constitution for an individual to be able to hold the office of President. We need a good solid current legal definition of "natural born" so that we would know what we are discussing. I can have one opinion and you can have another. I am neither a lawyer nor a Constitutional expert. Are you more qualified to define "natural born" than I am? If so, why are you more qualified? If you are not more qualified, why don't we ask the Constitutional experts at the Supreme Court for an official interpretation of "natural born"?

Jan December 21, 2008 1:15 AM  

Koyaan,

>There's not a shred of credible evidence that he was born anyplace other than Hawaii.

And, there's not a shred of "credible" evidence that he was born in Hawaii either because he refuses to release the appropriate paperwork to the appropriate authorities. I daresay owners or workers of a website is not acceptable as appropriate authorities of inspecting a COLB. For less than $15 he could release his paperwork to a proper judge and all these cases could be done away with, if what he claims is true. Why continue if there is nothing to it. If he is correct then show everyone, remove the distraction and back up his commitment to transparency.

btw December 21, 2008 12:11 PM  

Let us move forward said:
“…Has Mr. O ever stated verbally or written anywhere at anytime "I am a "natural born" citizen of the United States of America."?”

Please take a look at the following sites where you can see Obama’s signature:

http://citizenwells.wordpress.com/2008/12/07/obama-not-eligible-obama-not-natural-born-citizen-obama-signature-on-arizona-candidate-nomination-paper-moniquemonicat-blog-did-obama-commit-fraud-did-obama-lie/



http://moniquemonicat.wordpress.com/2008/12/02/secretary-of-state-requests-for-documents-sample-letter-responses-say-obamas-qualifications-never-verified/
“…3). Obama officially swore in writing in each state he ran for office that he was eligible and met all requirements to run for president. One particular document [Arizona] he even specifically swore he was a “natural born US citizen.” “

See also in 4) A)
“…BARACK OBAMA’S SWORN & NOTARIZED STATEMENT TO THE STATE OF ARIZONA THAT HE IS A “NATURAL U.S. BORN CITIZEN”

# Barack Obama’s sworn, signed and notorized State of Arizona “Candidate Nomination Paper” swearing he’s a “natural born citizen of the United States. THIS DOCUMENT IS MOST SIGNIFCANT BECAUSE HE SPECIFICALLY CERTIFIES HE IS A “NATURAL BORN U.S. CITIZEN.”…”
Similar written statements were made by Obama regarding New Hampshire, Illinois, Rhode Island, Kentucky (One may reasonably suppose that similar statements were made regarding all States and DC).

Koyaan December 21, 2008 1:08 PM  

Let us move forward wrote:

Thank you for your reply. Please note that the Constitution says "natural born citizen" although you imply "native born" citizen:

>There's not a shred of credible evidence that he was born anyplace other than Hawaii.


There are three distinct types of US citizenship:

1 Naturalized - take an oath
2 Native Born - born on US soil
3 Natural Born - born on US soil to two US citizen parents (or possibly to one unwed US citizen mother?)


I'm sorry, but the United States has never recognized but two types of US citizenship; those who are US citizens by birth (i.e. "natural born") and those who are citizens through naturalization.

On fightthesmears, the statement that Mr. O is "native born" appears. Please allow that "native born" and "natural born" are each a distinct and unique citizenship status.

Why should I allow that when there have never been distinct "native born" and "natural born" classes of citizenship in the US?

Has Mr. O ever stated verbally or written anywhere at anytime "I am a "natural born" citizen of the United States of America."?

Anything Obama may or may not have said is irrelevant.

"Natural born" is specified in the US Constitution for an individual to be able to hold the office of President. We need a good solid current legal definition of "natural born" so that we would know what we are discussing.

Since there has never been any third class of citizenship, it has always been whomever Congress has defined as a citizen at birth.

If so, why are you more qualified? If you are not more qualified, why don't we ask the Constitutional experts at the Supreme Court for an official interpretation of "natural born"?

You mean constitutional experts like, oh... Ruth Ginsburg, who agreed that the interstate commerce clause gave the federal government the power to enact a law prohibiting the possession of a firearm within 1,000 feet of a school zone?

k

Let us move forward December 22, 2008 10:38 PM  

koyaan:

The framers of the Constitution recognized that "natural born" was different from "native born" and chose the requirement of "natural born" only for the President. We have not had to examine the difference for many years because all the Presidents for the last 100 years have been both "native born" and "natural born".

All previous elected Presidents have been "natural born" or grandfathered in by the Constitution. One Vice President who became President upon the death of the President had a British father who was not a US citizen at his birth. He burned his papers and did everything he could to hide the fact. He knew what a "natural born" citizen was and he knew that he wasn't one. He was the only person to serve as President to date who was not a "natural born" citizen.

I'll bet that the Constitutional lawyer Mr. O knows the difference too. If he was born in Hawaii and his mother and Kenyan father were not legally married, he have a claim to "natural born" citizenship, but he would be the first to claim it under those circumstances. And, a fightthesmears post claimed that Mr. O had dual citizenship at birth, which would mean he was not "natural born" as the framers would have defined it.

The Supreme Court really should clarify if Mr. O is a "natural born" citizen and what constitutes "natural born" citizenship in the 21st century. The Court has been given the opportunity twice and has avoided it both times, even (it is alleged) going to extreme measures to keep the challenges from being docketed.

btw December 23, 2008 12:54 AM  

ANNOUNCEMENT

The domain www.democratic-disaster.com has changed its name. It's now
www.restoretheconstitutionalrepublic.org instead.

It pertains to the link that you can meet during reading my 2 messages here:

1) of December 19, 2008 11:58 PM
http://www.americasright.com/2008/12/berg-injunction-dismissed-case-alive.html?showComment=1229749080000#c3186385162770837358

2) of December 20, 2008 11:30 PM
http://www.americasright.com/2008/12/berg-injunction-dismissed-case-alive.html?showComment=1229833800000#c802607945263859202

So instead of

"Please see my comment here:
http://www.democratic-disaster.com/index.php?topic=1999.msg8151#msg8151 "

use

http://www.restoretheconstitutionalrepublic.org/index.php?topic=1999.msg8151#msg8151

Koyaan December 23, 2008 12:20 PM  

Let us move on wrote:

The framers of the Constitution recognized that "natural born" was different from "native born" and chose the requirement of "natural born" only for the President. We have not had to examine the difference for many years because all the Presidents for the last 100 years have been both "native born" and "natural born".

I've been looking into this quite extensively for the past couple of weeks.

And I've not found any evidence indicating that there has been any but two forms of US citizenship.

One was either considered a US citizen by birth and hence a "natural born citizen," or one was considered a US citizen by naturalization, and decidedly not a "natural born citizen."

I find no evidence anywhere of there ever having been any third class of US citizenship, where one was considered a US citizen by birth but was not considered a "natural born citizen."

If you can point to any evidence that I may have overlooked, I would be happy to take a look at it.

k

Let us move forward December 24, 2008 12:21 AM  

Koyaan

from http://federalistblog.us/2006/12/us_v_wong_kim_ark_can_never_be_considered.html

'John A. Bingham, chief architect of the 14th Amendments first section, considered the proposed national law on citizenship as “simply declaratory of what is written in the Constitution, that every human being born within the jurisdiction of the United States of parents not owing allegiance to any foreign sovereignty is, in the language of your Constitution itself, a natural born citizen…” '

The 14th amendment as written defines citizenship (not natural born citizenship specifically unless you read 'subject to the jurisdiction thereof' as 'born not subject to any other jurisdiction or allegiance'):

'All persons born or naturalized in the United States, and subject to the jurisdiction thereof, are citizens of the United States ...'

The definition of citizenship was modified by United States v. Wong Kim Ark, who was "native born" to Chinese parents.

The link above discusses United States v. Wong Kim Ark and there is apparently a wide opinion on whether the Court's decision in that case was legislation from the bench. Wong Kim Ark was the son of two long term legal residents of the United States that were prevented by treaty from becoming naturalized citizens. Compare that situation with Obama Sr. who probably had a student visa and returned to Kenya when he finished his education.

The fightthesmears post claims only native born citizenship.

There are additional discussions about the writings of the framers of the Constitution and their consideration of the requirement of citizenship vs. native born citizenship vs. natural born citizenship as the requirement for the President. See naturalborncitizen.wordpress.com (some discussions will be in the comments)

Allision, who is apparently a lawyer, posted on obamacrimes.com, that there is a lot of discussion about what is a "natural born" citizen in the legal community at this time. (She claims interest in the standing issue.)

If Mr. O becomes President, the precedent for letting "native born" citizens become President could be set. It could also allow "naturalized" citizens to attempt to become President, changing the Constitution without an amendment.

Thank you Mr. O for bringing this issue to light. Thank you also for pointing out that no one in the federal government is apparently required to certify the Presidential candidates' qualifications before the candidates can be elected by the popular vote.

Now, if the Supreme Court will just clarify the required citizenship status for the President of the United States, the Electors will not be making their own definitions of what constitutes "natural born" status. If the government will initiate and follow a certification process for Presidential candidates, we will not have to debate a similar question again.

btw December 24, 2008 8:55 PM  

To [b]Let us move forward[/b]:

Please show where in Constitution there is the term "native born
citizen".

My Constitution's understanding (Amendment XIV, Section 1 and
Article II, Section 1) is that there are only 2 groups of citizens:
Natural Born and Naturalized.
I understand that among "native born" persons (born on US soil) may be those who are however not US citizens (because they are subject not ONLY the US jurisdiction); so they are simply US residents. Those persons can become US citizens ONLY through
the process of NATURALIZATION; they never would be "Natural Born
Citizens".

[b]Straightforward reading of combination of only two fundamental documents
- Constitution and The Oath of Allegiance - was enough to show that there is NO NEED TO GET OBAMA’S BC TO PROVE HIS INELEGIBILITY TO BE POTUS ACCORDING CONSTITUTION[/b];
see my comments:
1) of December 19, 2008 11:58 PM
http://www.americasright.com/2008/12/berg-injunction-dismissed-case-alive.html?showComment=1229749080000#c3186385162770837358

2) of December 20, 2008 11:30 PM
http://www.americasright.com/2008/12/berg-injunction-dismissed-case-alive.html?showComment=1229833800000#c802607945263859202
(as I announced earlier, please use the link
http://www.restoretheconstitutionalrepublic.org/index.php?topic=1999.msg8151#msg8151

when you meet during reading the link
http://www.democratic-disaster.com/index.php?topic=1999.msg8151#msg8151 ;

the domain www.democratic-disaster.com has changed its name).

Let us move forward December 27, 2008 10:52 PM  

btw,

Thank you for the reference to

http://www.americanthinker.com/2008/12/natural_born_pickle.html

with its interesting approach to the question of Mr. O’s citizenship with both strong and weak definitions of natural born citizen.
(I noticed a few minor incorrect statements that don’t invalidate the general approach.)

Leo's case was based on the strongest definition, the definition that the framers intended and that was confirmed by the author of the XIV amendment.

Berg is attacking the weakest definition, the federal law that allows one US citizen parent of a child born aboard to transfer natural born citizenship.

The citizenship status granted to United States citizens born to two US parents abroad vary from natural born to naturalized (according to posts I have read). For the weakest definition, couldn’t babies conceived in foreign wars by United States servicemen and foreign women could be considered natural born US citizens at birth?

Why don’t we have consistent legal definitions of citizenship status and the consistent application of the same? This inconsistent approach to citizenship is crazy and confusing. This question goes beyond Mr. O’s eligibility to be President. The definitions of natural born and naturalized and any other classes of citizenship need to to clarified.

Where is the Court? Congress needs to get busy on this too.

btw December 28, 2008 8:57 AM  

Let us move forward,

Please read this

http://restoretheconstitutionalrepublic.org/index.php?topic=2021.msg8632#msg8632

THE ULTIMATE DETERMINANT IN THE STRUGGLE GOING ON FOR THE WORLD
WILL NOT BE BOMBS AND ROCKETS BUT A TEST OF WILLS AND IDEAS -- A TRIAL OF SPIRITUAL RESOLVE:

THE VALUES WE HOLD,
THE BELIEFS WE CHERISH,
AND THE IDEALS TO WHICH WE ARE DEDICATED.


RONALD REAGAN
(1911 - 2004)

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